Local Tower Upgrades (Verizon)

Post by **swwifty** » Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:34 pm

Today is my lucky day. I use Verizon for phone service, and noticed tonight that my signal strength was rather weak (only one bar, instead of the normal 3 or 4). I thought this was a bit odd, because my local Verizon tower (the only one in my area from my house) only has band 13 (750mhz) so I usually have a very strong signal even in my house cause its only about 1.3 miles away. I quickly looked at the cellmapper app installed on my Android phone, and much to my surprise found I was connected to band 2 and band 66! JACKPOT!

It looks like Verizon upgraded my local tower. I had noticed too briefly last week that LTE was out for a while (now I suspect they were upgrading the antennas on the tower then.) They also converted the old CDMA band around 850mhz to LTE (band 5 in LTE terms). So a brief summary of the bands I now have available:

Band 13 (750 mhz)
Band 5 (850 mhz)
Band 2 (1980mhz)
Band 66 ( 2 carriers at 2120mhz and 2165mhz)

I'm like a kid at Christmas! I did a speed test on my Samsung S8 and got 80mbps down and about 15 up. I ordered a Sierra EM7565 so I can get 3xCA on my home setup (All I have right now is MC7455 modems). I have a Verizon sim with the unlimited plan, just haven't been using it for dedicated Internet because the AT&T service here is better even though the tower is much further away. Can't wait test this with this modem. The bands look very under utilized. This is the same bands I've seen Verizon using in downtown Atlanta, and there I was able to get 290mbps down standing right next to small cells. I suspect I'll be able to get over 100mbps down now easily. See this post for my current home setup https://wirelessjoint.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=123 The post is a little bit out of date cause I switched those yagis out for the log periodic 10dbi antennas that offer 700-2700mhz so I could take advantage of carrier aggregation that is available in the area.

I also took my SDR to try and see how wide the bands are, but my SDR only goes up to 2ghz unfortunately. I did see that the new band 5 at 850mhz is 5mhz wide and band 2 is 10mhz wide at 1980mhz. I'm suspecting that the two band 66 carriers are at least 10mhz wide hopefully 20mhz wide!

I'll report back my results as soon as Jim ships me the EM7565

Post by **xdavidx** » Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:38 am

Congratulations!

If the MC7455 modems support those bands, you could band lock a couple at a time to see the widths.

An underutilized bunch of bands just for you! Lucky!

Post by **swwifty** » Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:11 am

xdavidx wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:38 am Congratulations!

If the MC7455 modems support those bands, you could band lock a couple at a time to see the widths.

An underutilized bunch of bands just for you! Lucky!

Thanks, I"m excited at the possibility of having an even faster connection.

the MC7455 unfortunately doesn't support B66, so thats why I ordered a EM7565, in addition to the ability to get 3xCA.

I figured out through cell mapper that B66 is 15mhz wide in this area (B66 is already on some towers in the near by town), so hopefully I'll get 3xCA at 10mhz (B2 ) x 15mhz (B66) x 15mhz (B66).

It'll be interesting to see if I can get 256qam modulation with the external antennas. I seem to be stuck at 80mbps down and 10-15mbps up on my phone, even though my phone has a CAT 16 modem I think my SINR isn't high enough to get higher than 64 QAM modulation at the moment.

Post by **swwifty** » Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:04 am

I couldn't resist the temptation to try this before my EM7565 arrives, so I reactivated my pre-paid unlimited Verizon plan and setup my test PI and MC7455 inside my house in my office. The results are super exciting, see below.

Screen Shot 2019-07-03 at 10.22.52 AM.png

That upload!!

Screen Shot 2019-07-03 at 10.21.27 AM.png

My primary carrier here is Band 4 at 2120mhz. There's also a Band 66 available around 2160 but my modem isn't using it, only aggregating with band 5.

Can't wait to get my new modem and try this! Might throw my sim in my outdoor setup to try too. Just my luck that my current setup already basically aims at this Verizon tower too.

Post by **xdavidx** » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:11 am

swwifty wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:11 am Thanks, I"m excited at the possibility of having an even faster connection.

Can't imagine why.

swwifty wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:11 am the MC7455 unfortunately doesn't support B66, so thats why I ordered a EM7565, in addition to the ability to get 3xCA.

Oh yeah. Might still be able to see the bandwidth on the others though. It will be nice when the 5G modems come out and support all the bands.

Post by **xdavidx** » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:19 am

swwifty wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:04 am That upload!!

Very nice.

swwifty wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:04 am My primary carrier here is Band 4 at 2120mhz. There's also a Band 66 available around 2160 but my modem isn't using it, only aggregating with band 5.

Wow, so you are going to have Bands 2, 4, 5, 13, 66 (times 2), all from one tower?? Now you just need a 6CA modem!

Wonder if you would get bands 2 and 13 if you blocked 4 and 5? That 20 MHz band 4 is *nice*. Can't get any better than that for an upload carrier. Well, except if it was one of the 700MHz bands, I guess.

swwifty wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:04 am Can't wait to get my new modem and try this! Might throw my sim in my outdoor setup to try too. Just my luck that my current setup already basically aims at this Verizon tower too.

Very lucky. Your outdoor antennas are fairly directional, aren't they? What is the beamwidth on those?

Post by **swwifty** » Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:34 pm

xdavidx wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:11 am Oh yeah. Might still be able to see the bandwidth on the others though. It will be nice when the 5G modems come out and support all the bands.

Indeed. The band 4 for in the status screenshot is 20mhz, so thats a good sign. Band 66 is a extension of Band 4, but the 7455 doesn't support it.

I was able to snoop with my SDR and see that band 2 carrier at 1980mhz is 10mhz wide, but my modem isn't connecting or aggregating to it for some reason.

Post by **swwifty** » Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:39 pm

xdavidx wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:19 am Wow, so you are going to have Bands 2, 4, 5, 13, 66 (times 2), all from one tower?? Now you just need a 6CA modem!

Wonder if you would get bands 2 and 13 if you blocked 4 and 5? That 20 MHz band 4 is *nice*. Can't get any better than that for an upload carrier. Well, except if it was one of the 700MHz bands, I guess.

Very lucky. Your outdoor antennas are fairly directional, aren't they? What is the beamwidth on those?

It's actually band 2,4, and 66. My cell mapper app was showing it as band 66, but my 7455 shows it as band 4. It's just semantics, but it's because band 66 is an extension of band 4, so the naming is kind of confused.

I really wish Sierra had a Cat 16 modem which supports 4xCA, but even then I'm not sure I'm going to get that. I went by the tower over lunch break (since its so close to my house) and ran a speed test but still only got 80mbps on my phone, even though it sees Band 2,4, and 66 (I have no way to tell what my carrier aggregation setup is on my phone unfortunately, those settings are locked out on Verizon phones.)

My antennas are these: https://thewirelesshaven.com/shop/antennas/4g-lte ... l-antenna/ I think the beamwidth if I recall correctly is somewhere around 60 degrees on those.

Regardless, I'll probably aim them in the future (albeit they are only 10 degrees off at most from the AT&T to the Verizon tower) because as you probably know with antennas the signal is strongest in the center of the beam.

Post by **xdavidx** » Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:57 pm

swwifty wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:39 pm It's actually band 2,4, and 66. My cell mapper app was showing it as band 66, but my 7455 shows it as band 4. It's just semantics, but it's because band 66 is an extension of band 4, so the naming is kind of confused.

I thought in you original post you mentioned 13 and 5 too?

Band 66 is a superset of Band 4. Are you saying that you have 3 chunks in there that you can access once you get the EM7565? What you are accessing now in band 4 and then 2x15 MHz of additional spectrum?

swwifty wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:39 pm I really wish Sierra had a Cat 16 modem which supports 4xCA, but even then I'm not sure I'm going to get that. I went by the tower over lunch break (since its so close to my house) and ran a speed test but still only got 80mbps on my phone, even though it sees Band 2,4, and 66 (I have no way to tell what my carrier aggregation setup is on my phone unfortunately, those settings are locked out on Verizon phones.)

Yeah, I wish the EM7565's qualcomm modem would have been supported fully by Sierra. The think the internal modem is a Cat 16 modem, but they are using it as Cat 12.

swwifty wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:39 pm My antennas are these: https://thewirelesshaven.com/shop/antennas/4g-lte ... l-antenna/ I think the beamwidth if I recall correctly is somewhere around 60 degrees on those.

Oh, interesting. You went back to those. What was the reasoning for going back to those? I almost went with those for my setup, but I was worried about foliage or other possible obstacles, so I went with the panel antennas.

swwifty wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:39 pm Regardless, I'll probably aim them in the future (albeit they are only 10 degrees off at most from the AT&T to the Verizon tower) because as you probably know with antennas the signal is strongest in the center of the beam.

At least the two towers are from different providers. I have the problem of multiple towers in the same 60 degree swath, so I have even aimed away from the tower I want in some cases, so that I don't pick up another tower to one side of my target.

You know, you *could* get a bandwidth aggregating VPN service and run the AT&T and Verizon at the same time.

Did you ever change out the 100 Mbps bottleneck in your Pi setup?

Post by **swwifty** » Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:26 pm

xdavidx wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:57 pm I thought in you original post you mentioned 13 and 5 too?

Band 66 is a superset of Band 4. Are you saying that you have 3 chunks in there that you can access once you get the EM7565? What you are accessing now in band 4 and then 2x15 MHz of additional spectrum?

Yeah, I wish the EM7565's qualcomm modem would have been supported fully by Sierra. The think the internal modem is a Cat 16 modem, but they are using it as Cat 12.

Oh, interesting. You went back to those. What was the reasoning for going back to those? I almost went with those for my setup, but I was worried about foliage or other possible obstacles, so I went with the panel antennas.

At least the two towers are from different providers. I have the problem of multiple towers in the same 60 degree swath, so I have even aimed away from the tower I want in some cases, so that I don't pick up another tower to one side of my target.

You know, you *could* get a bandwidth aggregating VPN service and run the AT&T and Verizon at the same time. Did you ever change out the 100 Mbps bottleneck in your Pi setup?

Yeah sorry I'm confusing here. There's Band 13 (10mhz) Band 5 (5mhz) Band 2 (10mhz) Band 4 (20mhz) Band 66 (Not sure channel size yet) I'm hoping I can get some aggregation of those larger bands with the EM7565.

I went to those log periodic antennas for a few reasons.

1. They had a radome for ice protection. The yagis got iced up a good bit last year, and I wanted to avoid that this next year. We get a lot of ice where I live in winter.

2. The yagis only supported band 2, and I wanted antennas that could support CA (since band 12 and band 2 were available in my area and band 12 comes in much stronger due to the range and obstructions).

3. I wanted antennas that had mounts that supported being mounted at +/- 45 degrees to match LTE antenna polarizations on towers. I found that mounting them that way made a slight difference in signal strength.

Edit Forgot to mention too that I went to a wide band antenna cause I was getting a lot of multipath destructive interference on Band 2 which was effecting throughput. I wanted to be able to use Band 12 as well.

I ended up putting the Verizon sim in my outdoor setup to test, and not too surprisingly the results aren't that much better than the simple 3dbi omnis, although the upload does look better. I'm still looking forward to seeing what CA of which bands with the EM7576. Hopefully not just Band 4 and Band 5.

Post by **swwifty** » Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:26 am

Here's some screenshots of the signal stats and speed with the Verizon sim in my outdoor setup.

Screen Shot 2019-07-03 at 11.10.45 AM.png

Screen Shot 2019-07-03 at 11.12.07 AM.png

Post by **xdavidx** » Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:50 am

swwifty wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:26 am Here's some screenshots of the signal stats and speed with the Verizon sim in my outdoor setup.

Is that tower in your back yard?! That SINR!

Get another 10 or 20 MHz of bandwidth and you'll be flying.

Is that during busy times of the day or off hours?

Post by **swwifty** » Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:04 am

xdavidx wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:50 am Is that tower in your back yard?! That SINR!

Get another 10 or 20 MHz of bandwidth and you'll be flying.

Is that during busy times of the day or off hours?

ha! It nearly is, about 1.3 miles away.

Those tests were in the evening. It's a very under utilized tower now that it got all these additional bands. Before Band 13 was totally useless since it was the only band there and it covered such a wide area.

Post by **swwifty** » Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:04 am

While I'm waiting for my EM7565 in the mail, I decided to try and lock bands to B4+B2. I thought with this I could maybe get some faster download speeds because B4 is 20mhz (I'm already connected to that) and B2 is 10mhz. I locked the modem to B4+B2 but it wouldn't give me any CA with B2. I locked the modem to only B2 and it connected to that, but it wouldn't do B4+B2. I'm hoping I'll get B66+B4+B5 when I try out the EM7565.

Post by **swwifty** » Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:19 am

I just realized I could probably aggregate band 13 + band 4, so I tried that by locking the modem to those two bands. I was able to get them to CA together for a total bandwith of 30mhz but it didn't make much download difference.

I suspect this is because band 13 is still pretty congested. It'll be really interesting to see what happens when I try with the EM7565.

I also noticed I see to be getting some multipathing on band 4. The secondary antenna has a weaker signal a good part of the time. I might have to try reaiming them later, but I'll wait till the new modem gets here to see if its worth it or not.

Screenshot below to show the multipathing on band 4 (Note the 10dbm difference).

Screen Shot 2019-07-05 at 9.20.31 AM.png

Post by **swwifty** » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:26 pm

Well, I got the modem and connected it to test, but having some odd issue with the secondary and third carrier main antenna RSSI and RSRP. Not sure what is up with this. I checked the connectors to make sure they aren't grounding, but I don't get why the primary carrier looks fine but the rest look like an antenna isn't hooked up. Any thoughts?

Screen Shot 2019-07-08 at 4.04.21 PM.png

Post by **JimHelms** » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:34 pm

The way I understand it, and until the latest firmware release a couple of weeks ago, Band 66 had some sort of glitch.

I am not sure that is the issue cause I do not use anything with Band 66, but I would certainly try flashing it with the latest firmware.

Post by **swwifty** » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:40 pm

JimHelms wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:34 pm The way I understand it, and until the latest firmware release a couple of weeks ago, Band 66 had some sort of glitch.

I am not sure that is the issue cause I do not use anything with Band 66, but I would certainly try flashing it with the latest firmware.

that's what I was just wondering.

Might give that a shot here in a few.

Post by **xdavidx** » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:48 pm

What happened to your primary Band 4 CID (ending in 612)?

Post by **swwifty** » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:49 pm

xdavidx wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:48 pm What happened to your primary Band 4 CID (ending in 612)?

Not sure yet, I think there might be two carriers on B66.

I tried unplugging and replugging in the antennas, and briefly saw B4 and B5 along with B66.

I'm going to try to determine how to upgrade to the latest firmware and hope I don't brick this thing. Good news is I have a Linux laptop to do it with.

Post by **xdavidx** » Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:02 pm

Maybe you are close the sector boundary and it is jumping between the CID ending in 612 and the one ending in 614. Obviously, those B66 chunks are nice, but the 20 MHz B4 was nice too.

Post by **swwifty** » Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:16 pm

xdavidx wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:02 pm Maybe you are close the sector boundary and it is jumping between the CID ending in 612 and the one ending in 614. Obviously, those B66 chunks are nice, but the 20 MHz B4 was nice too.

Yeah, it might turn out that the 7455 is better.

Regardless, trying to find information on how to properly flash this in Linux is going to be fun.....

Post by **xdavidx** » Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:00 pm

If you want an alternative, the AirVantage over-the-air flashing is fairly risk proof. Don't even have to take it out of the router or anything.

Post by **xdavidx** » Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:00 pm

If you haven't re-aimed the antenna yet, maybe that's another reason it jumped CIDs. Maybe a more focused aim would change which CID it prefers.

Post by **swwifty** » Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:08 pm

xdavidx wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:00 pm If you haven't re-aimed the antenna yet, maybe that's another reason it jumped CIDs. Maybe a more focused aim would change which CID it prefers.

that status page i showed was only using the little 3dbi omnis, not my full outdoor setup.

I was testing before I swapped the modem into my outdoor nema enclosure.

Flashing in progress, hopefully will know more soon

Post by **xdavidx** » Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:15 pm

Oh, I see. That explains it. Good luck with the flashing!

Post by **swwifty** » Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:22 pm

Well, I got it flashed, but not sure how to select this image. You can see the last line next to "PRI" is the image i just flashed onto it.

Screen Shot 2019-07-08 at 6.21.50 PM.png

Post by **xdavidx** » Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:30 pm

Careful. That looks like you have the configuration flashed, but not the true image flashed, since the ID for generic doesn't match either of the lines above for the images. Was that after a reset of the modem?

Post by **swwifty** » Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:33 pm

xdavidx wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:30 pm Careful. That looks like you have the configuration flashed, but not the true image flashed, since the ID for generic doesn't match either of the lines above for the images. Was that after a reset of the modem?

I unplugged the modem from my PI and plugged it into my Ubuntu Laptop to flash it.

It looks like it only flashed the PRI version of the firmware which is carrier specific. It doesn't look like actually did the firmware of the modem, which is odd, cause the folder I specified to find the firmware contains both. The log file seems to indicate it didn't find the .cwe file, only the .nvu file (which is used for PRI).

Not sure where to go at this point..

Post by **swwifty** » Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:35 pm

For what it's worth I'm following these instructions/adapted to my setup: https://github.com/danielewood/sierra-w ... QMI-SDK.md

Starting at line "EM7565 from Version <01.05.01.00 (Release <9) to Latest Release (9+)"

I didn't upgraded from less than Release 9 cause I already have above that, just used those instructions to do the latest firmware and flashed it twice.

Edit: The log file does seem to show it finding the cwe file. Not sure why it didn't flash it then.

Post by **xdavidx** » Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:42 pm

Maybe just try a few times to see if it gets in there?

Post by **swwifty** » Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:37 pm

OK, I got it figured out, below is an update on that flashing issue, and the testing I did.

When I first attempt to flash the modem, I got a error similar to the following (as seen on this link: https://github.com/danielewood/sierra-w ... QMI-SDK.md)

mbim open respons type error -2147480831
Error in modem crash state checking!error code = 103
Exiting Application!!!

The document suggests adding the "--dmreset" flag to avoid this error. I read the documentation for Linux flashing tool "fwdwl-litehostx86_64", but it was still unclear. Regardless, it helped me bypass that error.

I then ran the same command again a second time. When I put the modem back into my PI and started GoldenOrb, I saw the image status as shown in my previous reply. I then realized one of two things.

1. I noticed the .zip file was still in the folder containing the firmware and the log file showed it trying to read that in.
2. I hadn't removed the "--dmreset" flag on the second flash.

I tried removing the zip, and removing the --dmreset flag and then it properly flashed the modem. It hung for a few minutes stating it was flashing the modem, then I ran it again and it said the firmware was already up to date. I suspect that --dmreset flag prevented me from actually flashing the firmware and only ended up doing the PRI version.

Anyways, onto the good stuff.

I took the modem outside with the PI and only the 3dbi omnis to test. Strangely enough the RSSI and RSRP values look correct now, but it doesn't show the band names anymore!

So now its kind of difficult to know which bands i'm connected to without locking. Screenshot below.

Screenshot from 2019-07-08 19-35-59.png

Speed tests were around 60mb down / 20mb up.

At this point, I decided to slap it really quickly into my outdoor setup to see if the performance was any better. Screenshot of the status in my outdoor setup.

Screen Shot 2019-07-08 at 7.51.11 PM.png

Speed tests surprisingly didn't look much better.

Screen Shot 2019-07-08 at 7.48.31 PM.png

In conclusion, I think a few things are going on here.

1. I don't think Verizon is aggregating more than 30mhz of bandwith to my modem, regardless of how many carriers it has. I noticed on the EM7565 that when I was doing a speed test, CA was only active on one of the SCC carriers not both. Not sure why thats the case, but it appears to be so.

2. The EM7565 is picking band 2 as primary, but the MC7455 is picking B4 as primary. Best I can tell is, there actually might be two different carriers in Band 66 but I'm not sure cause it seems that the 7455 refers to parts of band 66 as band 4, and the 7565 refers to Band 4 and Band 66 only as band 66.

3. I thought this might be max performance i was going to see. I drove to the tower with my Samsung S8 which has a Cat 16 LTE modem and couldn't get much more than 70mbps down only 500ft away with clear line of sight. I tried from a different location too with clear LOS and same thing. Granted, this is with crappy cell phone antennas, but still. I would think up close if it was aggregating three bands, I could easily get over 100mbps.

4. The only last thing I can think to try is to test more with the EM7565 and lock to Band 4 + Band 66 and see what happens.

If I had a SDR that went above 2ghz it would be pretty easily to figure out what the bands are and their widths.

Post by **xdavidx** » Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:17 pm

Oh yeah, I forgot about the Band 4/Band 66 thing. It will show up only as 66 on a Band 66 capable modem, I believe.

I did some digging and I don't believe Band 66 can be the primary band for carrier aggregation when there are other bands present. The exception would be Band 70 and 71. So that's why it is putting Band 2 first. Not sure if CA combinations are to blame for why it is only activating 2 out of the 3 carriers. Hard to know without knowing what those bands are.

You did have Band 66 with 10 MHz and 20 MHz as secondary and tertiary with the old image, so probably a pretty good bet those are what you are seeing as 2 and 3 now. It didn't show which chunks of 66 they were though. What about running LTEINFO while a speed test is running? That should show the EARFCN and you can convert that into the band number, as well as know which section of the band it is.

Difficult to know max speed with only a few tests, since congestion could be limiting it. However, if you don't believe there are many people around there using the tower, then maybe that's all you can get. Middle of night test might help with that.

I am guessing (only guessing) that if you lock Band 4 and Band 66, you'll get Band 66 as primary and either another chunk of Band 66 as an active secondary carrier, or just Band 66 as primary and no other active secondary/tertiary carriers, if there isn't more than one chunk of Band 66, or if Verizon isn't set up for that combo.

I wonder if the Verizon firmware image for the modem would show the CA band numbers?

Post by **xdavidx** » Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:19 pm

Another test would be to allow all bands except Band 2. This would show you if there are other bands on there that it might give you if you can't get Band 2.

Post by **swwifty** » Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:27 pm

Good ideas. I'll do some more testing and report back here, before I decide to just stick with the 7455.

Post by **swwifty** » Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:21 pm

OK, so I got around to finally doing some more testing with the EM7565 and Verizon. The results are quite interesting. Below are the results, but I've been able to determine for sure what bands are on the tower now. Please use below as the reference throughput this post.

Band 13 (750mhz / 10mhz wide)
Band 5 ( 850mhz / 5mhz wide)
Band 2 (1980mhz / 10mhz wide)
Band 4 (2120mhz / 20mhz wide)
Band 66 (2165mhz / 10mhz wide)

I started off testing in my office with just my upgraded 3dbi omni antennas attached to the modem. Please note too that the latest version of the firmware for the EM7565 has all the band names jacked up for some reason.

Screen Shot 2019-07-15 at 9.37.28 AM.png

Notice B2 was primary while band 4 and band 66 were assigned as CA.

I also took a screenshot while doing a speed test and all secondary carriers were active. I don't have a screenshot of the speed test but it was about 70mbps down with about 25mbps up.

Screen Shot 2019-07-15 at 9.52.35 AM.png

The screenshot above was outside on my deck with some extra 9dbi yagi antennas hooked up. I had tried outside on the deck with just the omnis with the same results. I thought maybe the higher gain antennas would give me a different band order, but it didn't. Also note during this screenshot I was doing a speed test and in this case only ONE of the secondary carriers was active. That speed test got me about 65mbps down with 25mbps up.

Screen Shot 2019-07-15 at 10.11.49 AM.png

I then put the EM7565 in my outdoor setup, and tried some more tests. As you can see same carrier configuration, and I could only get one carrier active while doing a speed test. Speed test was about the same at 65mbps down / 25 up.

So this is where it gets interesting. For some reason, I thought maybe I should try the modem in QMI mode rather than MBIM. I had seen some threads about latency issues in MBIM mode that were improved with QMI, so I thought what the heck, let me give it a shot.

Screen Shot 2019-07-15 at 6.06.28 PM.png

And bam! Suddenly now the modem selected Band 4 (even though it says Band 66) as primary with Band 2 and Band 66 as secondary carriers. I have literally no idea why QMI mode caused this to happen, but I did notice that I didn't get an IPv6 address while in QMI mode as well.

Screen Shot 2019-07-16 at 11.19.25 AM.png

Speed test while in QMI mode. I also saw on speedtest.com about 70mbps down and 45mbps up. The interesting thing here is that the MC7455 that I normally use, selects Band 4 as primary too, but band 5 as the secondary carrier (remember 7455 only supports 2 carriers while the EM7565 supports 3).

So in conclusion there's a few things.

1. In my case, the EM7565 doesn't seem to make much of a difference in performance for me, because I'm not getting aggregation of all three bands. I don't know if this is unique to this tower, or if how Verizon just setups their different bands. I did test this modem with AT&T sim, and it did aggregate all three of their bands together (B12,B2, and B30).

2. I really feel like I should be getting better download speeds. My AT&T sim on my outdoor setup can get 75mbps down on B12 and B2 and that tower is 5 miles away NLOS, and only has a SINR of 10mbps! I suspect this tower must be over loaded even though it was just upgraded, because when I was in downtown Atlanta standing near some Verizon small cells with the exact same bands, I was able to get 290mbps down and about 60mbps up on my Samsung S8. I even drove right next to the tower with my phone and couldn't get more than 80mbps down, so the tower is either totally limited or highly congested already.

Anyways, just thought I'd post that to share my experiences. Really interesting, kind of disappointed, but the upload is probably worth the extra expense of using Verizon over AT&T. My current upload with AT&T is only about 3-5mbps because B2 is primary and the tower is so far away.

It'll be quite interesting to see what happens when all the leaves fall off.

Post by **xdavidx** » Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:46 am

swwifty wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:21 pm Band 13 (750mhz / 10mhz wide)
Band 5 ( 850mhz / 5mhz wide)
Band 2 (1980mhz / 10mhz wide)
Band 4 (2120mhz / 20mhz wide)
Band 66 (2165mhz / 10mhz wide)

You've got quite the smorgasbord to play with there.

swwifty wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:21 pm Also note during this screenshot I was doing a speed test and in this case only ONE of the secondary carriers was active. That speed test got me about 65mbps down with 25mbps up.

Interesting that they took away one band. Maybe just timing? When they take mine away, it comes and goes, with it being gone more during the day and present more at night. Maybe the better signal strength did it too -- they figured you had all you should have with the 2 bands.

swwifty wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:21 pm So this is where it gets interesting. For some reason, I thought maybe I should try the modem in QMI mode rather than MBIM. I had seen some threads about latency issues in MBIM mode that were improved with QMI, so I thought what the heck, let me give it a shot.

And bam! Suddenly now the modem selected Band 4 (even though it says Band 66) as primary with Band 2 and Band 66 as secondary carriers. I have literally no idea why QMI mode caused this to happen, but I did notice that I didn't get an IPv6 address while in QMI mode as well.

You're on a different CID. I'm guessing that was the reason instead of USB composition in the modem, but anything is possible.

swwifty wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:21 pm 1. In my case, the EM7565 doesn't seem to make much of a difference in performance for me, because I'm not getting aggregation of all three bands. I don't know if this is unique to this tower, or if how Verizon just setups their different bands. I did test this modem with AT&T sim, and it did aggregate all three of their bands together (B12,B2, and B30).

I'm starting to get the idea that Verizon is more stingy about CA, based on your results and what others have posted.

swwifty wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:21 pm 2. I really feel like I should be getting better download speeds. My AT&T sim on my outdoor setup can get 75mbps down on B12 and B2 and that tower is 5 miles away NLOS, and only has a SINR of 10mbps! I suspect this tower must be over loaded even though it was just upgraded, because when I was in downtown Atlanta standing near some Verizon small cells with the exact same bands, I was able to get 290mbps down and about 60mbps up on my Samsung S8. I even drove right next to the tower with my phone and couldn't get more than 80mbps down, so the tower is either totally limited or highly congested already.

Maybe they have so many more towers in the city (so they can leave it wide open), or the city towers have more advanced equipment (more MIMO, higher modulation, etc.). *Or*, in the city, they worry less about people using them for home internet service, and in the open spaces, they are trying to limit what any one person can get.

swwifty wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:21 pm Anyways, just thought I'd post that to share my experiences.

Thanks. It's really valuable to have these types of tests for others to compare against.

swwifty wrote: ↑Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:21 pm Really interesting, kind of disappointed, but the upload is probably worth the extra expense of using Verizon over AT&T. My current upload with AT&T is only about 3-5mbps because B2 is primary and the tower is so far away.

It'll be quite interesting to see what happens when all the leaves fall off.

Sucks to have to pick between upload and download, but I agree. I could, in theory, point my antennas at hill behind me and get very good daytime speeds with the reflected signal from a given tower. The uploads will be single digits though. Or, I can get slightly slower download speeds during the day from another tower and get really good upload speeds.

I still haven't given up on pointing directly at the tower that I can get good speeds from by pointing at the hill. But with my current setup, there are too many competing towers in that direction causing problems. I also have a theory that there might be some obstacles between me and the tower, so pointing directly at it doesn't work as well, but the signals are able to collect and rebound in a narrower beam off that hill. Very weird no matter how it is happening. Still mulling over a grid antenna to laser connect to the tower of my choice.

Yeah, if your verizon tower is very close, then maybe the foliage won't make as big of a difference vs that further away AT&T tower.

Post by **swwifty** » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:08 am

xdavidx wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:46 am You've got quite the smorgasbord to play with there.

Interesting that they took away one band. Maybe just timing? When they take mine away, it comes and goes, with it being gone more during the day and present more at night. Maybe the better signal strength did it too -- they figured you had all you should have with the 2 bands.

You're on a different CID. I'm guessing that was the reason instead of USB composition in the modem, but anything is possible.

I'm starting to get the idea that Verizon is more stingy about CA, based on your results and what others have posted.

Maybe they have so many more towers in the city (so they can leave it wide open), or the city towers have more advanced equipment (more MIMO, higher modulation, etc.). *Or*, in the city, they worry less about people using them for home internet service, and in the open spaces, they are trying to limit what any one person can get.

Thanks. It's really valuable to have these types of tests for others to compare against.

Sucks to have to pick between upload and download, but I agree. I could, in theory, point my antennas at hill behind me and get very good daytime speeds with the reflected signal from a given tower. The uploads will be single digits though. Or, I can get slightly slower download speeds during the day from another tower and get really good upload speeds.

I still haven't given up on pointing directly at the tower that I can get good speeds from by pointing at the hill. But with my current setup, there are too many competing towers in that direction causing problems. I also have a theory that there might be some obstacles between me and the tower, so pointing directly at it doesn't work as well, but the signals are able to collect and rebound in a narrower beam off that hill. Very weird no matter how it is happening. Still mulling over a grid antenna to laser connect to the tower of my choice.

Yeah, if your verizon tower is very close, then maybe the foliage won't make as big of a difference vs that further away AT&T tower.

It might be just a timing thing, but really hard to confirm that unless I logged data about the modem all the time and could graph it somehow.

I suspect the antennas in cities are much better. They are moving towards active antennas that do beamforming in the cities, and I'm sure rural areas are mostly still on passive antennas and will be the last to get updated. That being said, it's possible this tower has active antennas now, cause I tend to see my SINR bounce between 15-30. I can't tell if thats during receiving data or not.

It's clear to me that the upload speed indicates the tower can hear my modem very well. With the EM7565 I was getting 40mhz of aggregated bandwith which I would think could easily do over 100mbps.

Post by **swwifty** » Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:51 pm

Forgot to add I scheduled a cronjob at 3am to run a speed test with the speedtest-cli tool, just to rule out any possible congested. This is the results:

Wed 17 Jul 03:00:01 EDT 2019
Retrieving speedtest.net configuration...
Testing from Verizon Wireless (174.218.132.14)...
Retrieving speedtest.net server list...
Selecting best server based on ping...
Hosted by QTS Data Centers (Suwanee, GA) [22.38 km]: 46.476 ms
Testing download speed................................................................................
Download: 66.30 Mbit/s
Testing upload speed................................................................................................
Upload: 38.20 Mbit/s

So it seems the tower is probably not all that congested, i'm just rate limited.

Post by **xdavidx** » Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:10 pm

swwifty wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:08 am It might be just a timing thing, but really hard to confirm that unless I logged data about the modem all the time and could graph it somehow.

This might help with that: https://testmy.net/auto It won't show you how many bands you have, but you could possible tell, indirectly, based on speed.

swwifty wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:08 am That being said, it's possible this tower has active antennas now, cause I tend to see my SINR bounce between 15-30. I can't tell if thats during receiving data or not.

Can you check the SINR during a speed test and without a speed test to see if that's the case?

swwifty wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:08 am It's clear to me that the upload speed indicates the tower can hear my modem very well. With the EM7565 I was getting 40mhz of aggregated bandwith which I would think could easily do over 100mbps.

I was able to get over 100 Mbps when close to an AT&T tower on 40MHz of bandwidth (20+10+10), and I'm sure there was some congestion due to variability. I was even able to get up to a peak of about 145 Mbps on 30 MHz (15+10+5) on another tower that same day.

I wish these things had a command to see the modulation rate. There is a chance there is an unpublished command, but I haven't found it yet.

Post by **xdavidx** » Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:15 pm

swwifty wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:51 pm So it seems the tower is probably not all that congested, i'm just rate limited.

I suppose the question there is whether you are being limited by only getting 2 carriers or limited within a carrier, or both.

It is *possible* that they don't have spacial multiplexing MIMO on that tower. You could test that by disconnecting the secondary antenna and seeing if the rate goes down significantly.

You could get an older version of Network Signal Guru if you have a rooted android phone and see the modulation rate. It might even show whether spatial multiplexing is happening for the MIMO. Obviously, the modulation will be affected by distance, but if you use the phone a few blocks from the tower, you'll find out what it supports.

Post by **swwifty** » Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:31 pm

xdavidx wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:10 pm This might help with that: https://testmy.net/auto It won't show you how many bands you have, but you could possible tell, indirectly, based on speed.

Can you check the SINR during a speed test and without a speed test to see if that's the case?

I was able to get over 100 Mbps when close to an AT&T tower on 40MHz of bandwidth (20+10+10), and I'm sure there was some congestion due to variability. I was even able to get up to a peak of about 145 Mbps on 30 MHz (15+10+5) on another tower that same day.

I wish these things had a command to see the modulation rate. There is a chance there is an unpublished command, but I haven't found it yet.

I've checked the SINR during tests and it does seem to be higher, but really hard to tell for sure.

I wish too that I could see the modulation rate.

That test site is... interesting.

Post by **swwifty** » Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:32 pm

xdavidx wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:15 pm I suppose the question there is whether you are being limited by only getting 2 carriers or limited within a carrier, or both.

It is *possible* that they don't have spacial multiplexing MIMO on that tower. You could test that by disconnecting the secondary antenna and seeing if the rate goes down significantly.

You could get an older version of Network Signal Guru if you have a rooted android phone and see the modulation rate. It might even show whether spatial multiplexing is happening for the MIMO. Obviously, the modulation will be affected by distance, but if you use the phone a few blocks from the tower, you'll find out what it supports.

That's a good idea. It seems like i'm getting 2x2 MIMO given that typically my upload speed is half my download speed and we all know that LTE only does SISO on upload, but I can give it a test.

I don't have a rooted android phone unfortunately, although I do have an Android phone.

I went close (within 500ft clear LOS) to the tower before and couldn't get faster than about 80mbps down.

Post by **xdavidx** » Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:35 pm

swwifty wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:31 pm That test site is... interesting.

It isn't the best user interface, but I played around and got it working and used it for my own testing. It sure eats up the monthly bandwidth to do repeated tests.

You're on unlimited with Verizon, so shouldn't matter.

Post by **xdavidx** » Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:01 pm

swwifty wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:32 pm That's a good idea. It seems like i'm getting 2x2 MIMO given that typically my upload speed is half my download speed and we all know that LTE only does SISO on upload, but I can give it a test.

Yeah, I agree. You would think, without any congestion, and with great signal strength and SINR and equivalent modulation, and with primary and secondary carriers being the same width, that upload would be 1/4 of download. And in your case, with the first CID, you have 10 MHz as primary and 20 MHz as secondary, so that discrepancy should be even more. However, if the primary is congested, then it could tilt things such that the upload catches up a bit, since uploads are generally less congested than downloads.

66 down and 25 up (for your 10+20 case) would be about 38% of download. I guess the test will show either way.

swwifty wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:32 pm I don't have a rooted android phone unfortunately, although I do have an Android phone.

Well, rooting is *far* easier than all this LTE and 802.11 stuff!

I plan on running an old version of it once I get my new phone. My current phone only supports HSPA+, not LTE. Other family members have LTE phones, but I've managed to not abduct them too much, aside from popping the AT&T sim in there when I first set up my account.

swwifty wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:32 pm I went close (within 500ft clear LOS) to the tower before and couldn't get faster than about 80mbps down.

Yeah, so if you are able to see the QAM (and possibly MIMO type), then you'd know if that is the reason for the slowdown there. Maybe download won't go above 64QAM on that tower. It would also show which carriers you get on the phone vs what you are getting on the EM7565. You'd want to compare apples to apples CIDs though.

During daytime hours, when I'm right next to a tower in a more populated area, the speeds vary *greatly*. It can be hanging out at 60 Mbps for many minutes and then jump up to above 100 for a while and then back down. Probably just depends on how many people are streaming TV shows/youtube on their phone at the time.

Post by **swwifty** » Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:26 pm

xdavidx wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:01 pm Yeah, I agree. You would think, without any congestion, and with great signal strength and SINR and equivalent modulation, and with primary and secondary carriers being the same width, that upload would be 1/4 of download. And in your case, with the first CID, you have 10 MHz as primary and 20 MHz as secondary, so that discrepancy should be even more. However, if the primary is congested, then it could tilt things such that the upload catches up a bit, since uploads are generally less congested than downloads.

66 down and 25 up (for your 10+20 case) would be about 38% of download. I guess the test will show either way.

Well, rooting is *far* easier than all this LTE and 802.11 stuff!

I plan on running an old version of it once I get my new phone. My current phone only supports HSPA+, not LTE. Other family members have LTE phones, but I've managed to not abduct them too much, aside from popping the AT&T sim in there when I first set up my account.

Yeah, so if you are able to see the QAM (and possibly MIMO type), then you'd know if that is the reason for the slowdown there. Maybe download won't go above 64QAM on that tower. It would also show which carriers you get on the phone vs what you are getting on the EM7565. You'd want to compare apples to apples CIDs though.

During daytime hours, when I'm right next to a tower in a more populated area, the speeds vary *greatly*. It can be hanging out at 60 Mbps for many minutes and then jump up to above 100 for a while and then back down. Probably just depends on how many people are streaming TV shows/youtube on their phone at the time.

I'd be pretty surprised if mimo wasn't turned on, but its possible i'm not getting the higher transmission modes, cause there's lots of different modes the LTE radios can be in depending on conditions.

I'm willing to bet its congestion, because a lot of folks I talk to around here have "hotspots" for home internet around here.

Post by **xdavidx** » Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:56 pm

swwifty wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:26 pm I'm willing to bet its congestion, because a lot of folks I talk to around here have "hotspots" for home internet around here.

Those are some night owls if they were clogging it at 3 am.

Post by **swwifty** » Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:01 pm

xdavidx wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:56 pm Those are some night owls if they were clogging it at 3 am.

yeah which is even more confusing, makes me think maybe its just rate limiting? I mean netflix is rate limited on Verizon... so why not everything else?

Post by **xdavidx** » Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:18 pm

swwifty wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:01 pm yeah which is even more confusing, makes me think maybe its just rate limiting? I mean netflix is rate limited on Verizon... so why not everything else?

Maybe you have some other users who have a bunch of torrents all queued up and are constantly downloading.

It does seem like Verizon is more of the mind to play games vs the other providers, going off what others have posted and needing to use TTL tricks, etc.

Add an amp to your primary antenna on AT&T and you might have the best of both worlds (download and upload). Costs more, of course, for the equipment.

Post by **swwifty** » Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:13 pm

xdavidx wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:18 pm Maybe you have some other users who have a bunch of torrents all queued up and are constantly downloading.

It does seem like Verizon is more of the mind to play games vs the other providers, going off what others have posted and needing to use TTL tricks, etc.

Add an amp to your primary antenna on AT&T and you might have the best of both worlds (download and upload). Costs more, of course, for the equipment.

an amplifier? a lot of the ones I've seen for LTE are $$$$

Post by **xdavidx** » Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:53 pm

swwifty wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:13 pm an amplifier? a lot of the ones I've seen for LTE are $$$$

Yep. $250 for the one that @tgoodwin is using with his grid antenna.

Post by **swwifty** » Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:18 am

xdavidx wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:53 pm Yep. $250 for the one that @tgoodwin is using with his grid antenna.

ouch

Post by **tgoodwin** » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:12 am

I've been watching eBay for another amp. They pop up from time to time. I just missed a new in box one for $179. Made a low ball offer and it sold the next day at listing price. I was thinking it was someone from here

Post by **swwifty** » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:32 am

do these amplifiers work in both directions or just in receive ? I can't imagine they would amplify on transmit as UE limits in LTE are already +23dbm which the UE can easily do.

Post by **tgoodwin** » Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:42 am

The spec sheet says it is bi-directional

Post by **xdavidx** » Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:11 pm

You saw much better upload speeds with the amp than without, didn't you?

Another amp?! Is that secondary antenna getting jealous of the one that the primary has?

Post by **swwifty** » Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:39 am

tgoodwin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:42 am The spec sheet says it is bi-directional

huh, I wonder if that just takes cable losses into effect and transmits at the max 23dbm.

Post by **swwifty** » Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:40 am

xdavidx wrote: ↑Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:11 pm You saw much better upload speeds with the amp than without, didn't you?

Another amp?! Is that secondary antenna getting jealous of the one that the primary has?

I wonder if you could just run all your cabling through this thing and then split it back to the modem, or if that would mess up the spatial multiplexing cause then it would be effectively the same signal?

Post by **xdavidx** » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:42 pm

swwifty wrote: ↑Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:40 am I wonder if you could just run all your cabling through this thing and then split it back to the modem, or if that would mess up the spatial multiplexing cause then it would be effectively the same signal?

Nope, doesn't work that way. You'd need one for each antenna.

Post by **swwifty** » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:18 pm

xdavidx wrote: ↑Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:42 pm Nope, doesn't work that way. You'd need one for each antenna.

Yeah, was just thinking out loud here, but most spatial multiplexing processing is done digitally. That being said orthogonal signal polarizations (Vertical and Horizontal, or +/- 45 degrees) probably help reduce the digital processing with all the overhead of spatial multiplexing.

Post by **xdavidx** » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:25 pm

It does work that way if you have a booster system where you are pulling in signals on an outside set of antennas and want to combine those and amplify that through an internal antenna that your phone is connecting to. There are also combiners that can combine 2 different antennas and you can boost that signal, but the idea there is to have 2 antennas that are pulling in signals from different frequency bands.

Post by **LaurieEdwards** » Thu May 21, 2020 4:32 am

tgoodwin wrote: ↑Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:42 am The spec sheet says it is bi-directional

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