Rural internet antenna setup HELP!

[Rod Smith]

Okay here goes.
I have two Wilson 314411 antennas close together on a pole, each antenna is 45 degrees to the horizon and 90 to each other pointed in the same direction (usual setup I think)with two KRM400 cables 15' long. Also I have a ZTE MF279 modem on an AT&T plan and Network Cell Info Lite app on my Android phone for signal strength and tower location.
The towers in my area are 10 to 14 miles away except for one that my phone app says is 2 to 3 miles away, the odd thing is I can drive to the GPS location provided by the app and there is no tower to be found. My suspension is there is a tower in that general direction it's just further away. If the tower information on the app is crowd sourced maybe it's not reliable? But the app tells me that the phone or ZTE is using that suspect tower.
So my issue is I can't seem to get any improvement with these antennas. Standing on the roof of my house with just my phone (not using the ZTE) the best I can get is -98db, not great. I can use the ZTE while stand on the roof with no external antennas and can't get as good as the phone by itself. If I add the two Wilson antennas no matter where I point them the signal never really improves it pretty much stays in a range of 105 to 110 about the same as with the ZTE and no external antennas. My method of locating the signal is, point the antennas wait for the app to react slightly rotate the antennas wait for the app and repeat. I'm lost, I don't know what to do or try. Anyone got some suggestions? Thanks!

[Didneywhorl]

A tower survey from thewirelesshaven.com will get you the exact location of your chosen number of towers. No guarantees THAT exact tower will show, as the FCC databases aren't updated or reported to as often as they should be. But if they find it, they show you a satellite picture of its exact location.

https://thewirelesshaven.com/product-category/tower-survey/


Or you can fire up the cellmapper app on your phone and make a login so that you can drive around for a week or so and upload all the data and hope like hell it moves to a more accurate location.

[MattB29]

Pointed antennas is a frustrating thing. Especially if like me you live in a heavily wooded hilly area. I just got in a 18db mimo flat directional antenna that my first attempt to mount on my roof (with the 15 ft of supplied cable not much choices)proved less than what I would wish for. I have been using two magnetic base mount whip antennas hooked to my WG3526, EM7565 that are stuck to the bottom edge of my metal roof just outdoors from the router. It allows me to connect to band 12 (AT&T) with about 3-15mbs down and 3-12mbs up. My signal with this has been usually about 67%, RSRP of -97 main and -99db (A) No carrier aggregation.

When I hooked up the panel and guessed at the direction of my signal I noticed my signal quality dropped to 38% but all of a sudden I was connected to band 2 and carrier aggregating with Band 66. My RSRP number were terrible at about -120db. The dl test however jumped up to 18-20mbs but the upload was abysmal at .3mbs. The problem is to keep climbing on the roof to play with the stupid thing. (I don't have a buddy that can relay any information to me so it is up the roof, adjust, back down and check)

Not really what I would find usable. However as I was on the roof it struck me my TV antenna has a rotator and is much higher and more open of an location. My new plan is to get longer cable (about 15m) and temporary mount to the TV pole and than play around with adjusting the direction to see what will be my best possible signal. Once found I can than mount the LTE antenna separately but I will know where to point it. With the TV antenna rotator it should go a lot easier to dial it in.

Just out of curiosity I did some research on a cheap antenna rotator and noticed that some of the less expensive TV antennas have them powered through the CO-AX cable. Something like this; https://www.ebay.com/itm/480-Miles-Outd ... 1570061050 Model TA-001 adapted to remove the TV antenna might be a trick for someone. All you would need is a extension cord to power to the unit from the ground and a simple coax run up. That would avoid having to climb up each time you need to move the antenna.

Just a thought.

[websiteperson]

Just out of curiosity I did some research on a cheap antenna rotator and noticed that some of the less expensive TV antennas have them powered through the CO-AX cable. Something like this; https://www.ebay.com/itm/480-Miles-Outd ... 1570061050 Model TA-001 adapted to remove the TV antenna might be a trick for someone. All you would need is a extension cord to power to the unit from the ground and a simple coax run up. That would avoid having to climb up each time you need to move the antenna.

Just a thought.

I have this exact* antenna; well, 2 of them, now for my attempt at getting more channels.
The rotor seems to turn in a random direction each time you press/hold the button. That said, you could still theoretically find a good spot, eventually, but you won't know which way it moved, to fine tune.

Side note/off-topic: the mile range on these cheap antenna listings is hilarious. 480mi... 990mi...

[gscheb]

When I tune in my antennas take my phone with me on roof. Log into rooter and watch signal strength and quality as I turn it.
If try to run speed test on roof it is junk. But the slightest wifi signal will allow to get into the UI and watch those signal readings.

[MattB29]

I have this exact* antenna; well, 2 of them, now for my attempt at getting more channels.
The rotor seems to turn in a random direction each time you press/hold the button. That said, you could still theoretically find a good spot, eventually, but you won't know which way it moved, to fine tune.

Side note/off-topic: the mile range on these cheap antenna listings is hilarious. 480mi... 990mi...

Would not be great for repeatability than. You would have to move it to a spot and than go inside to check your readings. Still might be better than climbing onto a roof each time you need to move the thing.

My RCA TV rotator is a much more sophisticated (able to handle the weight of a big antenna)and is graduated in 360 degree readout so it is a lot more able to be dialed in. However it cost a great deal more than one of these cheap setups.

*Yes the 480 mile claims are funny *

[MattB29]

Using the TV rotator mount this morning I was able to work for the best signal. It was not what I would have thought. For one thing it really depends on the band and cell tower the modem latches to and sometimes you need to reboot the modem to get it to change. I needed to not only change the direction and wait I also had to be prepared for numbers that seem to defy the actual speed tests I could get. it seems Band 2 is mostly what it runs on with Band 66 sometimes aggregating (also band 12) and sometimes being the connected band. One thing for sure being able to sit at my computer and not climb up and down off the roof was a major help.

Doing my testing early Sunday morning may also change things once I get into the more congested time of day. I was impressed to see an actual d/l of near 30mbs most around 22mbs. Never had that before. My best upload however was only 3.5mbs with most of the tests running around 1.3mbs.

Time will now tell if this is better or not than the 2 simple whip antennas I was using that always operated on band 12. In terms of signal quality the best I get from the new mimo panel antenna is 41% (band 2) whereas the best the whip antennas provided were 70% (band 12)

[DogTho]

If you can get the eNB ID number from your phone or something, go on cellmapper and put your carrier in, and down in the left side is a 'tower' dropdown list. Put that eNB number in, not the hex, the real number, like mine is 59771 for TMob (VA) and it should take you right to the tower and it should be near you. Cellmapper is the only one I've found useful data on, the cellphone apps don't report very good info from my experience. I've had them show a tower not 3 miles from me and I can drive to the location, there's no tower there, and I know it, it's right next to a church. Cellmapper will also tell you the bands on that tower. For mine it's very accurate. I use B4 because it's 20MHz wide, I get 20-30 Mbps down where on B12 which is much stronger but only 5MHz, I only get 5Mbps.

[MattB29]

I just had to show this latest speed test on my Cricket simply data plan with my new antenna setup. Possible just atmospherics since it is well beyond anything I have seen before.

If I could get this all the time I would be ecstatic. Not likely though.

[Adm1jtg]

So did those numbers stay consistent?

I have been away a long time now but just finished my setup that is very much like yours and faced some of the same challenges as well so was curious how you made out in the long term

[MattB29]

Numbers have been good and I have seen as high as ~80mbs down with more consistent around the 30-40mbs range. Upload speeds tend to be around 1-2mbs. I would say it works reasonable and allows me some streaming for TV and web usage. I do get the occasional halts during that and unexplained failures for a website to load.

My connection bounces from Band 66 and Band 2 with bouts of CA between them and even Band 12. My signal strength numbers are not worth looking at since it seems the best speeds do not necessarily corresponded to the best signal numbers. It almost seems like Voodoo at times this cellular internet stuff.

[mtl26637]

There are so many variables at play that it can seem like voodoo or sure. First thing I would try is finding every tower that is available within 5-10 miles by loading up cellmapper on your phone and doing some country cruising. Take a look on google maps and/or street view and visually locate any towers then start driving around and let your phone plot a grid of signal strength and tower locations to get a good idea of available towers/channels/bands. Once you have that information you will know which direction to point any external antennas. With LTE, it is true that you pretty much get what you pay for when it comes to equipment. Line of site is very important if you live more than a few miles away from the tower if you are wanting more speed. Signal strength can be tricky as speeds are very dependent on the bands. Great strength on some bands is far slower than 'okay' strength on other bands. With a good modem and external antenna setup with decent signal and SNR numbers you should get pretty good speeds such as 50-100 down and 10-50 up. A couple of my modems average over 100 down and recently seen one of them almost hit 200. How busy the tower is can play a big role also. Its the amount of variables that come into play that can be frustrating. When looking for equipment I would with The Wireless Haven as you will know what you are getting and are at fair price.

[Adm1jtg]

I am having similar issues to OP, though must less in the way of overall results:
if I let the router pick its own lte channels it picks lte band 5 (10mhz) and sometimes will aggregate to band 66 (10mhz)
stats were as follows:
CSQ 28
Signal Strength about 77%
Rssi -65
ecio -14
rscp about -98
Speedtests were below 10 consistently.
The above numbers didnt vary much at all

I locked the lte band to 66 (it would also aggregate to 66 as well) and got the following stats:
CSQ 15
Signal Strength 44% - 52%
Rssi -81 to -83
ecio anywhere from -10 to -13 usually about -12
rscp -110 all the way to -117
Speedtests are between 14 and 20

I must be missing something as band 66 is much much weaker (about 25% or at least 15db) and less stable (fluctuates more) yet its is much "cleaner" quality wise and gets better speedtest results.

Not meaning to hijack thread it just seems my expierence and OP's expierence are very similar in that we both have scenerios in which signal strength really doesnt seem to be a major factor in results, yet almost everything I have read says to aim your antennas based on strongest signal.

Curious to see replies and explanations for this.

[gscheb]

Higher frequency bands are typically faster. Bands 2, 4, 66. They are typically less congested too since they are harder to connect to on cell phones.

[MattB29]

Curious to see replies and explanations for this.

Just as a example of what I get with signal strength of 38%:
AT!GSTATUS?

Reset Counter: 1 Mode: ONLINE
System mode: LTE PS state: Attached
LTE band: B66 LTE bw: 10 MHz
LTE Rx chan: 0 LTE Tx chan: 132622
LTE SSC1 state:INACTIVE LTE SSC1 band: B66
LTE SSC1 bw : Unknown LTE SSC1 chan: 0
LTE SSC2 state:NOT ASSIGNED
LTE SSC3 state:NOT ASSIGNED
LTE SSC4 state:NOT ASSIGNED
EMM state: Registered Normal Service
RRC state: RRC Connected
IMS reg state: No Srv

PCC RxM RSSI: -91 PCC RxM RSRP: -119
PCC RxD RSSI: -92 PCC RxD RSRP: -121
SCC1 RxM RSSI: -100 SCC1 RxM RSRP: -120
SCC1 RxD RSSI: -98 SCC1 RxD RSRP: -117
Tx Power: -- TAC: 600f (24591)
RSRQ (dB): -12.3 Cell ID: 03d905bd (64554429)
SINR (dB): 5.2

And my speed test with those numbers:


So it ain't just about signal strengths

[Adm1jtg]

Another band 66 user.... I wonder if its a combination of the higher frequency and in my case also the better quality (ecio 2 to 5 db better).

Just kinda counter intuitive as I live in a mountainous and Heavily wooded area so you would think the higher frequencies that penetrate these obstacles less well would not be a good choice.

Also just to throw this out there.... everyone also seems to say just find your tower on cellmapper and maybe even run the maps using a utility like airlink for line of site and such.....
Well again in my instance cellmapper does indeed place my tower (using the enb# from my router) but it places it pretty much northeast. I run airlink and indeed NE has a clear path....
But the reality is the best most stable signal is dead north (on the same ENB# about 45 degrees different). There are NO towers showing north in cellmapper. Airlink says there are mountains in the way and I should not get any signal at all to the north.

I guess all I am saying is read all the guides and how too's but realize at least in really rural areas like mine the informaton you research is not allways accurate. The only REAL 100% accurate way to aim your antennas is to maually turn them when monitoring the signal either via router or meter and lock it to the best you can find. Then as shown above once locked in on a tower try locking lte bands to different frequencies and run a ton of speed tests, again the numbers can be misleading and common sense must be your guide. Base it on results for things like consistancy and reliability not just signal strength or speedtests. Also things like time of day tour running tests and time of year as well. For example you may get very different results in summer with trees in full bloom then in winter when the leaves are mostly off the trees.

It really is voodoo with way to many options to map out but with the people here helping it is manageable, just takes a lot of time and patience.

[gscheb]

Yes cellmapper is wrong allot. Specially if it is a red dot. Red dot means not verified. Green dot is verified. But even with the green dot in my area shows no 5G when I know there is.

But with that being said it is still a very good tool. Usually find on cellmapper then verify myself with google maps satellite view.

[mtl26637]

Cellmapper is only as good as the amount of information its users have uploaded. It works by triangulation of uploaded signals from various users over time. When I began using it, it wasn't very accurate, however, after logging each provider and using several different phones/devices and driving around all directions from the tower the accuracy went up tremendously in my area and I was then able to pick its exact location physically seeing it on the map. Say if several people are located "South" of an existing tower and nobody has logged any information from any other directions from the tower (North/East/West) then it has no way to tell the tower's location other than signal strength. Once it has information from all directions it will be much better and the more devices the more chances of seeing all available bands and channels. It usually took a day or 2 to show new plots of signal strength after it had been uploaded. Thats how I've come to understand it and seems to be the case anyway.

[MattB29]

I looked at Cellmapper and found it about useless in my location. Not that it does not show the towers, it just that where I point my antenna for best reception has little correlation to where they are at. Funny enough my outdoor antenna is pointed almost midway between two towers (near as I can figger) and right at a heavy growth of trees.

Perhaps the flatlanders can point at towers and have actual line of sight. Where I live anything more than a few hundred feet away is obscured by terrain or forest. Most folks get lost if they come out here without keeping to public roads.

[mtl26637]

On the cellmapper site, do the public roads show any "signal reference dots" on the map when you zoom in to a closer scale? If so, are they located on all sides of the towers approximate location? If not, you can load up the cellmapper app on your phone and do some lte tower wardriving to help the system better triangulate its location and available bands and channels. IMO, its by far the most valuable tool for information about all of the towers signals and bands and to get an idea of the regions of the sector antennas. Once you have a good grid and plot you can even see the limits of each sector once you click on the tower it will shade in different colors the extreme limits of each channel/band.

[Adm1jtg]

I looked at Cellmapper and found it about useless in my location. Not that it does not show the towers, it just that where I point my antenna for best reception has little correlation to where they are at. Funny enough my outdoor antenna is pointed almost midway between two towers (near as I can figger) and right at a heavy growth of trees.

Perhaps the flatlanders can point at towers and have actual line of sight. Where I live anything more than a few hundred feet away is obscured by terrain or forest. Most folks get lost if they come out here without keeping to public roads.

I tend to agree with you.... the utilities seem to work better for those of us not in a mountain or forest type area and an area with lots of people. Even the topographical utility in programs such as airlink dont seem to work for me. According to airlink pointing my antennas as I have have them pointed, I would need to be something like 160 feet higher then my roof or I would be aiming directly into a mountain. Well I am aimed just such a way and only about 20 feet or so off the ground and on band 5 I can get 80% or more for estimated signal strength, so obviously not pointing THROUGH a mountain.

My personal opinion is that all these tools are great but as the cows begin to outnumber the people they really are not to be trusted.

[cagordon1985]

Stand on the roof at night time and look for flashing lights

[Dr-BroadBand]

Google Earth would be another good tool.

I have found it’s sometimes better not to know where the tower is at, when shooting through trees. I Think there are reflections that happened.

Better to slowly rotate Antenna until you reach Max signal. Often it’s where are you least expect it to be.

Trees are not easy to get a signal. It’s like going through water the Signal gets attenuated.

See link
https://youtu.be/kFsYem_7eZg

https://youtu.be/IddB63xWT7A

[Adm1jtg]

This is exactly what I ended up doing. You can do all the research and map out things with all the utilities but the bottom line is the only 100% accurate way to find the best tower/location and point your antennas at it is to get up on the roof or wherever your antennas are, with a meter hooked directly to the antenna and find the absolute strongest signal.

To this day I still dont know where the tower I am pointed at and using is located. I have the tower id and all and I can reference it on cell mapper but where cell mapper says this tower is and where I am pointed with my antennas is almost 90 degrees different.

Oh and calling the carroer and asking about cell tower informatiom is pointless. At least with verizon and att. I have tried. att just seems pretty clueless and apparently the support team has no utilities to find towers. Verizon on the the other hand removed the ability for their techs to see towers at all and will not give any information about towers or location anyway, claiming its a security risk. They refused to even tell me a cardinal direction to start pointiny my antenna at.