Wireless Joint

I have a Verizon tower (band 13) 6 miles away, relatively flat land in between. I currently have one external Wideband Directional Antenna 700-2700 MHz and I the best I get is get 3 bars (-99) on my router. I am wanting to build a better antenna setup so I am trying to understand this MIMO thing. I have read a lot about MIMO, but I am still confused. Not sure if MIMO antennas would be a good choice since this would only be a stationary setup trying to pick up a signal from only one antenna (band 13).
Any advice or input appreciated.

Hey WallyC, welcome to the forum!

MIMO is the way to go when dealing with LTE. But, the tower controls most everything, including the bandwidth to your device. Unless you do band locking, then the tower also controls what band(s) is served to you.

Without a MIMO setup, you will never experience higher speeds that one band delivers. (Lookup: CA = Carrier Aggregation)

You make no mention of what type of device / setup you are using so really hard to recommend antennas.

Take a look at this article about MIMO:

https://www.telcoantennas.com.au/site/h ... -mimo-work

They explain the advantages of MIMO.

terryjett wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:14 pm Hey WallyC, welcome to the forum!

MIMO is the way to go when dealing with LTE. But, the tower controls most everything, including the bandwidth to your device. Unless you do band locking, then the tower also controls what band(s) is served to you.

Without a MIMO setup, you will never experience higher speeds that one band delivers. (Lookup: CA = Carrier Aggregation)

You make no mention of what type of device / setup you are using so really hard to recommend antennas.

Take a look at this article about MIMO:

https://www.telcoantennas.com.au/site/h ... -mimo-work

They explain the advantages of MIMO.

terryjett
Thanks for the welcome and the link.
I am using a MOFI4500 connected to this single antenna listed above. The MOFI does have band lock.

I would like to purchase from The Wireless Haven so some links would be great if possible.
I do plan to have the MOFI within 15' of the antennas.
Not sure if I need the low loss cables or not.
Thanks for the help!

I have never used the MOFI4500 but looks like 4 antenna, 2x wifi and 2x cellular.

Have never mixed antennas either, but The Wireless Haven has a great yagi. Do not think there will be issues with mixing antennas, but cannot guarantee that (too many variables)

https://thewirelesshaven.com/shop/antennas/4g-lte ... l-antenna/

No matter which antennas you use, if staying with the yagis, pay close attention the the image showing 45 deg angles at above link.

The cables. You want low loss for sure and short as possible. The Wireless Haven has LMR200 (dual) in 10, and 20 ft:

https://thewirelesshaven.com/shop/cables/antenna- ... al-cables/

You need to verify what type of connectors on MOFI4500. I am assuming SMA felmale on MOFI4500 so you need SMA male on one end and Type N Male connectors on other.

Hope this helps got you going with better speed!

Thanks for the links.
Placed my order today
I went ahead and purchased two new antennas to be certain they were same.
I will post results when I get them installed.

Good deal!

Using two antennas exactly the same is of course best route. Think you will find them of great quality for the price.

When you get things setup, please do post your results. I always enjoy seeing what people are doing, how they have tweaked and end results:)

I got the antennas installed. After adjusting them I found that the signal strength did not change much until I aimed them at a different tower , also 6 miles away and same band. I never tried aiming the other antenna at this one because the direction would cause the antennas to be partially blocked by my metal barn roof.
Results:
The Signal Strength dropped from -99 to -89 (Fair to Good).
The signal quality -9.2.
The Diversity Signal Quality is -92.
I disconnected one of the antennas (from the secondary port) and the results were:
The Signal Strength -89.
The signal quality -9.4.
The Diversity Signal Quality is -140.
I ran speed test and I am getting an avg of 12-15 download and little higher on upload. I don't understand it but all my speed test show I have a higher upload than download.
Going to try this setup for awhile and when I get time, move the antennas to the opposite side of the barn,
I have the antennas mounted on aluminum mast and an 18" aluminum angle bar.
Still learning.

If I remember right, band 13 is like the flagship band for Verizon, aka congestion city. Are there other bands available?

2, 4/66, 5?

Your install is clean, very nice.

WallyC wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:32 pm I got the antennas installed. After adjusting them I found that the signal strength did not change much until I aimed them at a different tower , also 6 miles away and same band. I never tried aiming the other antenna at this one because the direction would cause the antennas to be partially blocked by my metal barn roof.

I was wondering, what's that white box in the middle of the mast? Since I don't see the antenna cables running into it... dying to find out! lol

I was also wondering. Looks like a PtP beam

Didneywhorl wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:03 pm If I remember right, band 13 is like the flagship band for Verizon, aka congestion city. Are there other bands available?

2, 4/66, 5?

yes, band 2, but it was -122.

BillA wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:15 pm I was wondering, what's that white box in the middle of the mast? Since I don't see the antenna cables running into it... dying to find out! lol

lol, yeah, it is a Ubiquiti M2 for a ptp to my house. If you look close the cat6 is coming out the bottom.

WallyC wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:57 pm yes, band 2, but it was -122.

lol, yeah, it is a Ubiquiti M2 for a ptp to my house. If you look close the cat6 is coming out the bottom.

Great to know what that box is, now I can live again! ;D
I've read that you can reliably run up to 100 meters (about a 100 yards) of CAT-6 ethernet cable. The advantage of a wired connection is nearly no latency, which usually gets introduced with every wireless "hop", be that a Point-to-Point box, or WiFi extender/router in the middle. What's the distance you had to bridge with the PTP box?

BillA wrote: ↑Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:16 am Great! Knowing what that box is, now I can live again! ;D

LoL, killin me Bill

Didneywhorl wrote: ↑Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:36 am LoL, killin me Bill

Great, now we've got another forum member dying over here... at least I've survived. tsk-tsk

BillA wrote: ↑Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:16 am What's the distance you had to bridge with the PTP box?

I am running this one only about 200 feet to my house where I have another M2, which is connected to a switch where I have multiple devices connected in the house.

WallyC wrote: ↑Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:45 pm I am running this one only about 200 feet to my house where I have another M2, which is connected to a switch where I have multiple devices connected in the house.

Well, 200 feet is only about 60 meters, so if minimizing latency and increasing speed in your network is important, then perhaps running a CAT-6 ethernet cable would be beneficial, course you're the boss.

Your higher upload than download is a reasonable sign of tower congestion. A quick test to find out is to see if this changes at 3AM when the tower's resources are not being taxed.

Do you know exactly where the towers are located in reference to your location?

Generally, a bad ideal to install antennas where the signals are having to cross a roof-especially a metal one-to hit the antennas. The roof can reflect the signals and change its polarity (i.e., an inversion of the signal amplitude.).

There are times when this cannot be helped. In these cases you should try to extend the antennas as high in the air as possible.

It would be really good to look at your signal stats using the AT Command:
This is provide a better picture of what they looks like that otherwise possible in the MoFi firmware.

You can run this on the modem using Putty and screen as discussed HERE

JimHelms wrote: ↑Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:07 pm
Do you know exactly where the towers are located in reference to your location?

yes, I know exactly where they are.

JimHelms wrote: ↑Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:07 pm Generally, a bad ideal to install antennas where the signals are having to cross a roof-especially a metal one-to hit the antennas. The roof can reflect the signals and change its polarity (i.e., an inversion of the signal amplitude.).

There are times when this cannot be helped. In these cases you should try to extend the antennas as high in the air as possible.

When I first installed this mast I expected to aim the antennas to the south which would have directed the antennas away from the roof. It wasn't until I tried to zero them in on a signal that I realized another tower to the west was giving a better signal. Both antennas are about 6 miles away. I mentioned is an earlier post that I plan to relocate them to the opposite side of the barn and hopefully increase my signal. I ran out of time, daylight and patience when I did this dual antenna install.

JimHelms wrote: ↑Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:07 pm It would be really good to look at your signal stats using the AT Command:

Code: Select all

AT!GSTATUS?

This is provide a better picture of what they looks like that otherwise possible in the MoFi firmware.

You can run this on the modem using Putty and screen as discussed HERE

Going to try out the command lines.

On top of everything I just got a notice that my hotpot data for this account is almost used up, Wasn't expecting that since I have Verizon Unlimited. Did not think it would recognize it as a hotspot.
I checked the towers and they also have AT&T antennas on them so I may try them. I think AT&T has an unlimited plan that won't throttle back because of data amount, only congestion.

Thank you,
.

WallyC wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:08 am
On top of everything I just got a notice that my hotpot data for this account is almost used up, Wasn't expecting that since I have Verizon Unlimited. Did not think it would recognize it as a hotspot.

I checked the towers and they also have AT&T antennas on them so I may try them. I think AT&T has an unlimited plan that won't throttle back because of data amount, only congestion.

Thank you,
.[/b]

Are you using custom TTL rules in the firmware settings?

This may help to overcome the hotspot limitation.

JimHelms wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:48 am Are you using custom TTL rules in the firmware settings?

This may help to overcome the hotspot limitation.

No, I didn't put anything in. I did read before I purchased the MOFI that the "ISP TTL" was set to "Linux-2 65" by default and that was suppose to overcome the hotspot data rule.
I'm open to try more. Thank you.

WallyC wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:20 am No, I didn't put anything in. I did read before I purchased the MOFI that the "ISP TTL" was set to "Linux-2 65" by default and that was suppose to overcome the hotspot data rule.
I'm open to try more. Thank you.

Try these three TTL values (64, 65, 117), make sure to click Save, and reboot the router after each setting just to be on the safe side. If it works, you should notice your data working again and/or a significant speed increase.
I wonder if the Point-to-Point extender could be setting the wrong TTL value even if it's correct in your router?? Just a wild guess.

WallyC wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:20 am No, I didn't put anything in. I did read before I purchased the MOFI that the "ISP TTL" was set to "Linux-2 65" by default and that was suppose to overcome the hotspot data rule.
I'm open to try more. Thank you.

MOFIa.jpg

I would test 1117 and see it there is any change.

When you go under the FIREWALL TAB, is there another tab for CUSTOM RULES?

JimHelms wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:40 am I would test 1117 and see it there is any change.

When you go under the FIREWALL TAB, is there another tab for CUSTOM RULES?

yes, there is.
Can you tell me exactly how to add it please?
Thank you.

Are you getting an IPV6 address?

Very nice and clean install!

One thing I have learned over the years is to setup a test install, then make it pretty after everything is working like I want. But no matter, I commend you for the neat appearance. Very professional.

No need for me to note the tin roof, seems you are aware of the possible effects.

Looks like you are on your way. Little moving around of antennas is not unusual. Trying another carrier is not a bad idea at all. In my area, Verizon is very strong but their speeds are slow (even slower than at&t). I get dang near double speed from AT&T compared to Verizon with same equipment.

I am stepping back, looks like you have plenty of people helping you:)

JimHelms wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:12 am Are you getting an IPV6 address?

No.
I found this setting to enable/disable.

If you are not using IPV6, disable your TTL rules and try these in your Custom Rules.

#startTTL
iptables -t mangle -I POSTROUTING -o wwan0 -j TTL --ttl-set 65
iptables -t mangle -I PREROUTING -i wwan0 -j TTL --ttl-set 65
#endTTL

Then, if they leak, try changing the 65 to 117

Giving it a try, Thank you.

WallyC wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:09 am Giving it a try, Thank you.

The best way to test the TTL values, is after having used up ALL your included hotspot data.
While you still have some data left, it's next to impossible to tell if the settings have any affect or not.
Regardless of the the Verizon warning, if it's set up properly, you should be able to continue using the data beyond the hotspot limit.

BillA wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:35 am The best way to test the TTL values, is after having used up ALL your included hotspot data.
While you still have some data left, it's next to impossible to tell if the settings have any affect or not.
Regardless of the the Verizon warning, if it's set up properly, you should be able to continue using the data beyond the hotspot limit.

I've used all my data. At a crawl. So far nothing is working. Not sure I'm adding these values right.
Thank you.

WallyC wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:26 pm I've used all my data. At a crawl. So far nothing is working. Not sure I'm adding these values right.
Thank you.

In order to avoid wasting time, test your sim inside a phone to see if you can still call and go online on the phone's browser. If it doesn't work on a phone then there's a much bigger issue than just your hotspot data. If the data works on your phone and you've tried all the TTL settings on the router yet still no web, then it's possible that they are also using UA (User-Agent) or packet filtering, meaning that they can tell if the http traffic is coming from a phone or pc. Two ways to circumvent that, by using a UA spoofer (a simple browser plugin such as User-Agent Switcher), or a VPN. Let's just hope that's not the case.
There was a case on here with another Verizon user, which turned out to be some kind of imei (serial number) restriction on a corporate account. You may want to read through that thread at https://wirelessjoint.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=780

BillA wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:21 pm In order to avoid wasting time, test your sim inside a phone to see if you can still call and go online on the phone's browser. If it doesn't work on a phone then there's a much bigger issue than just your hotspot data. If the data works on your phone and you've tried all the TTL settings on the router yet still no web, then it's possible that they are also using UA (User-Agent) or packet filtering, meaning that they can tell if the http traffic is coming from a phone or pc. Two ways to circumvent that, by using a UA spoofer (a simple browser plugin such as User-Agent Switcher), or a VPN. Let's just hope that's not the case.
There was a case on here with another Verizon user, which turned out to be some kind of imei (serial number) restriction on a corporate account. You may want to read through that thread at https://wirelessjoint.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=780

I will give it a shot, but my sim is a data only sim.

WallyC wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:47 pm I will give it a shot, but my sim is a data only sim.

That's ok, it should at least allow you to go online, use the Chrome browser on your phone to go to a couple of different websites. Course before doing that, make sure you have set up the APN correctly. What kind of "data only" Verizon plan do you have, is it some kind of business/corporate plan? Have you switched to ATT? Out of curiosity what exactly happens when you try to make a call (not that it matters for data purposes).

BillA wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:35 pm That's ok, it should at least allow you to go online, use the Chrome browser on your phone to go to a couple of different websites. Course before doing that, make sure you have set up the APN correctly. What kind of "data only" Verizon plan do you have, is it some kind of business/corporate plan? Have you switched to ATT? Out of curiosity what exactly happens when you try to make a call (not that it matters for data purposes).

I put the SIM in my phone, data limits still restricted.

I had 3 Verizon lines on an unlimited plan (not business) and decided I no longer need the 3rd line. I tried using it in a cradle-point and had to call Verizon to get the SIM to work. At that time they put me on a "data only" plan for that number. It cost $20 a month, 15g limit.

When I try to make a call it sends me to Verizon and answers with an automated recording.

I'm going to try AT&T now, Not giving up yet.
Thanks for the help.

WallyC wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:28 am I put the SIM in my phone, data limits still restricted.

I had 3 Verizon lines on an unlimited plan (not business) and decided I no longer need the 3rd line. I tried using it in a cradle-point and had to call Verizon to get the SIM to work. At that time they put me on a "data only" plan for that number. It cost $20 a month, 15g limit.

When I try to make a call it sends me to Verizon and answers with an automated recording.

I'm going to try AT&T now, Not giving up yet.
Thanks for the help.

Based on your statement "It cost $20 a month, 15g limit.", assuming that's a total data allowance per month not just hotspot data, there's no way to bypass that limit with any hacks on the router. As an additional test, go to the web browser on your phone and try to go to a couple of different web sites. If nothing comes up and your APN is set up properly, then then there's definitely a 15GB/month hard limit of all data usage on your $20 line. After all, I don't think Verizon is that generous to give you fully unlimited data for just 20 bucks.

BillA wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:17 am Based on your statement "It cost $20 a month, 15g limit.", assuming that's a total data allowance per month not just hotspot data, there's no way to bypass that limit with any hacks on the router. As an additional test, go to the web browser on your phone and try to go to a couple of different web sites. If nothing comes up and your APN is set up properly, then then there's definitely a 15GB/month hard limit of all data usage on your $20 line. After all, I don't think Verizon is that generous to give you fully unlimited data for just 20 bucks.

Yeah, would be generous by Verizon. The plan is actually unlimited, just not at the speeds i want, lol.
Your comment got me thinking though (dangerous i know). What would happen if I put a sim card in from one of my other unlimited phones which are not being throttled on data, only hotspot?
Well, I tried it and immediately got a detailed (phone, sim, device info) message from Verizon...

Verizon isnt playing around

WallyC wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:46 am Yeah, would be generous by Verizon. The plan is actually unlimited, just not at the speeds i want, lol.
Your comment got me thinking though (dangerous i know). What would happen if I put a sim card in from one of my other unlimited phones which are not being throttled on data, only hotspot?
Well, I tried it and immediately got a detailed (phone, sim, device info) message from Verizon...

I rest my case... he-he
As you can see, a lot of wasted time can be avoided if the sim card is tested in a phone when the router's not connecting. While the router's interface gives some information about the connection, there's nothing better than the information on a phone's screen along with warning messages/texts.

Well, here are some options for ya...
1. Imei "repair"... Please don't ask, but I will say this, a one time 50 bucks can make the router look like a Samsung phone to the network, or any other phone for that matter;) If it gets flagged by Verizon, you could also try replacing your existing modem with a non Sierra brand (such as a Quectel EP06-A or EM12-G), which hopefully won't be flagged as a MoFi.
2. Switch to a Verizon reseller which don't have these restrictions, for example Visible $40 (high latency), PagePlus $55 (great speeds but a bit pricey).
3. Or if you can do without Verizon, then try ATT $35 (relatively slow seeds), Tmobile/SimpleMobile $45 (great speeds over 100Mbps with good signal), Sprint (no comment;)

So there you have it, pick your poison.

Curious about your no comment on Sprint?

I run my main setup on Sprint. Best speed test is 380Mpbs )average 150Mbps (speedtest.net, taken with a grain of salt) on an EM20G, type2 NAT for gaming, and its comparable to ATT plans in cost. Also ridiculously easy to swap devices and not get janged for overages.

Didneywhorl wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:43 am Curious about your no comment on Sprint?

I run my main setup on Sprint. Best speed test is 380Mpbs )average 150Mbps (speedtest.net, taken with a grain of salt) on an EM20G, type2 NAT for gaming, and its comparable to ATT plans in cost. Also ridiculously easy to swap devices and not get janged for overages.

"No comment" since I have no experience with Sprint in a router (other than Sprint sucks! haha just kidding)
But kidding aside, having run a phone repair shop for over 20 years, and at some point being a Sprint dealer, there were nothing but problems with Sprint customers complaining about the lack of signal etc. Let's just say it wouldn't be my first choice for service.

ahhhh, ten four. I wont deny my previous Sprint cell phone experience left me wanting for more.

Didneywhorl wrote: ↑Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:42 pm ahhhh, ten four. I wont deny my previous Sprint cell phone experience left me wanting for more.

Roger that... it's still lacking signal around here, though I've heard it's great in Vegas... go figure.

Update:
Since Verizon isn't working out with the data plan, I took some suggestions and tried AT&T.
I left the antenna in the same spot to start with. Verizon and AT&T share the same tower so I thought signal would be about the same, but AT&T was a little weaker. So, I moved the antenna to the other end of my barn roof so it wouldn't have to shoot over / across the roof. That did not help at all. A little frustrating because of the time it took to reroute wires etc...
Anyway, signal (image) is best I can get for now. Still working on it. Trying to decide what to try next.

I do want to add that this "poor" signal is as good or better than Satellite has ever been. Kind of crazy because doing speedtest Satellite shows consistently better speeds, but real life internet surfing and streaming video the cell service is rock solid. This is one of the main reasons (besides cost) I'm all in on the cell plan.

Just for giggles, did you try aiming in all 360 degrees, 10-20 degrees at a time, to see if you can capture any mystery towers? Its sometimes surprising.

Didneywhorl wrote: ↑Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:56 am Just for giggles, did you try aiming in all 360 degrees, 10-20 degrees at a time, to see if you can capture any mystery towers? Its sometimes surprising.

oh, I did. I tried a lot of weird angles, directions etc...
I'm sure it probably isn't unique to this router, but I can log into it with my phone and the signal page (I posted the picture of) changes in real time while I'm working with the antenna.

WallyC wrote: ↑Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:24 am Anyway, signal (image) is best I can get for now. Still working on it. Trying to decide what to try next.

Well, your last two options are Tmobile and Sprint. In my opinion, one of the easiest ways to tell which carrier works best in a particular location, is by simply inviting some friends over with phones on all the major carriers. By running several speed tests in and around your home looking for the best signal quality/speeds, it can give you a good general idea on which one works and which doesn't, without having to waste time and money on signing up on all the carriers yourself. Also, using a good router with external antennas, speeds are usually even higher.

I havent read the entire thread but when you said your verizon plan didnt work out... did you try a visible plan?

Adm1jtg wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:07 pm I havent read the entire thread but when you said your verizon plan didnt work out... did you try a visible plan?

No, still using AT&T for now. No other towers close enough to try.