Wireless Joint

Hi all,

I’ve got a conundrum here and calling Verizon, weboost, Wilson have all been beyond useless, but it seems folks here really have the technical side dialed, and that’s exciting!

I am working remote, line of site to a mega tower on a mountain, but currently ~14 miles away. I am getting good signal, B4 1700-2100mhz, RSRP ~80, but for speed tests...

Download: 20-35mbps
Upload: .03-.07mbps

That sucks when it comes to video conferencing. I’m not asking for much, but 1-3mbps would make a world of difference.

What I’ve tried
1. Weboost home (60db amp) with panel antenna
2. Weboost home with (10dbi) Yagi antenna
3. Old Hughes net parabolic dish with phone at focal point, crudely calibrated for offset
4. Hughes dish with panel antenna + amp
5. Hughes dish with yagi antenna + amp
6. A very tall mast, on a hill, with yagi

Oddly, the booster seems to have no discernible effect on UL speeds, and seems to slow DL speeds ~10mbps (perhaps because it’s a repeater?). This shocked me, as I thought it would be a huge improvement for upload given the extra gain. Today I got 1mbps for a minute, then .35mbps sustained for a bit, before it dropped to the usual ~.05. This was with the yagi and booster.

What I’d like to try
MIMO 4x4 with the 8800L (But no MIMO on UL on LTE!!??)
8800L w/ 2x2 external antennas
Hughes dish with better calibration
Hughes dish with 1700mhz helical antenna, and possible wave guide
Possibly a router with another carrier’s SIM, but Verizon seems to be king out here

Any ideas on where to troubleshoot/experiment next?

A few specific Q’s
Q1. With good reception for MIMO Hotspot and a booster, will MIMO pick up one channel from the booster and others from internal antennas, or would the booster override the tower signal?

Q2. Is it possible the UL speed is being limited by the carrier or at the tower? It seems no matter where I move to, how high I go, what booster I use, the UL speeds seem clamped very low. It is a very remote area (Lake Powell) but the tower signal is very strong.

Thanks so much for any and all help! Excited to learn more - it’s a fascinating process!

What are you actually using for you internet connection? Are you using a hotspot, lte router or a phone?

It's also worth noting that at 14 miles, you're doing pretty well with what you have. Most people at that range would have a high end parabolic grid antenna.

Chances are, you're going to struggle. You're likely having noise issues at that distance, and since you're the little voice reaching very far, its hurting your UL.

If you're using a router/modem (not phone/hotspot) try to pull the SINR numbers.

Stayaway from the booster, they boost the signal, but they also boost the noise.
A GOOD antenna setup is the way to go. The parabolic grid antenna is the king of antennas

But most lack the skills or patience to get them to work. Since you have line of sight to the tower
this will help! Think of this antenna as a sniper rifle or a laser pointer and take the time
to play with it. Start with one and add another if needed. Will need MiMO for speed.

The tower is a very good transmitter so the DL are very good. You/your setup is a poor
Transmitter so poor UL. “Captain we need more power”

The more information / data you give the group the more we can help!!

https://youtu.be/xzqkoPL9t9A

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07PQ ... 1d6b1bfbee

https://www.cellmapper.net/map

If you go the parabolic router would look into this one.
https://thewirelesshaven.com/shop/antennas/wifi-a ... d-antenna/
It is mimo antenna only need one of them. That one from Amazon will need to buy two of them to have mimo.

Thank you very much for the immediate flood of responses!

Currently using an iPhone 6s for hotspot, but mostly running speed tests on the phone. I know it’s not ideal. I have a Jetpack 8800L in the mail. Not opposed to paying more for a modem/router if there is a distinct advantage beyond multi-carrier and more diagnostic info (real-time diagnostics for pointing a dish would be huge actually).

First, thanks for that clarification on the booster. Makes perfect sense. Sounds like I could add 120db amp and have the exact same problem.

My intuition told me a parabolic dish was the solution, so really awesome to have this confirmation.

Am I wasting time playing with the Hughesnet Ku dish? I was considering trying to build a 1700MHz 3 turn helical antenna for it, but the offset makes it that much harder to aim. Also no MIMO with that setup.

The The Wireless Haven dish looks lovely. It’s a bit pricey, but I’m willing to try it if that’s my best bet. Also seems like good value considering.

I was eyeing ~25db 2.4ghz WiFi dishes on eBay for $80, wondering if I could couple my own 2x2 MIMO to one of those to save some $ But I think getting the right beam width to illuminate the dish properly then becomes the challenge, and you don’t save that much.

Is there such a thing as amplifying only the uplink? Seems that would help, and clearly don’t need an amp for DL, but I don’t see 1700mhz specific amps, only wideband.

Also, is there MIMO support for LTE B4 upload? I’m confused what the advantage would be otherwise since I don’t need better DL.

The tower must be a beast. I was getting 30 mbps DL at 20 miles. Seems almost unheard of. I can probably get more like 6-8 miles from the tower, I assume that would help a lot, though going for 20 miles to 14 miles made essentially no difference.

Ztrain727 wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:40 pm Currently using an iPhone 6s for hotspot, but mostly running speed tests on the phone. I know it’s not ideal. I have a Jetpack 8800L in the mail.

What wireless plan do you pan on using in there?

Ztrain727 wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:40 pmIs there such a thing as amplifying only the uplink?

Most phone boosters do not amplify upload.
Personally have seen the most upload improvement with a parabolic dish.

Ztrain727 wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:40 pm Also, is there MIMO support for LTE B4 upload? I’m confused what the advantage would be otherwise since I don’t need better DL.

A mimo antenna of any kind that improves signal will help with upload.

gscheb wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 2:00 pm What wireless plan do you pan on using in there?

It’s the Verizon “Get more unlimited” plan, 30gb of hotspot LTE, I believe the best consumer plan offered. I’d hope it’s not throttled.

Interesting booster don’t boost upload. The dish makes perfect sense, just seems boosting the outbound signal before it reflects in the dish would be a substantial benefit.

Good to know MIMO should help UL. I read elsewhere it doesn’t on LTE - not sure what that’s about.

Or am I misreading that. The antenna gain will help upload, not necessarily the MIMO?!

Be careful on your choice of antenna. You need to know which bands you have available to you before you purchase one. That above linked Parabolic looks like it lacks low end bands, which are more likely what you're getting at that range.

There are modems that will MIMO upload, but the cheaper ones I do not believe do this.

thejohnfist wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:53 pm Be careful on your choice of antenna. You need to know which bands you have available to you before you purchase one. That above linked Parabolic looks like it lacks low end bands, which are more likely what you're getting at that range.

It is band 4 consistently, so looks like that antenna supports this band. It’s mostly a leap of faith because there are no returns if it doesn’t work. I sympathize but it makes it a tough decision.

There are modems that will MIMO upload, but the cheaper ones I do not believe do this.

Any in particular that you could recommend?

I don't know of any off the top of my head, you'd probably want to e-mail or call The Wireless Haven and ask, or any other place that sells modems.

Good idea! I will inquire with them if there is such a product!

The MIMO antenna on that dish would essentially be going to waste unless the modem supports it since my DL speeds are already great. I assume the jet pack 8800L does not support MIMO uploads.

I’m still playing with the idea of building a helical antenna to feed the dish I have. I ran a calculator, and already have most of what I’d need.

I ordered a parabolic antenna (I wanted to get the The Wireless Haven MIMO one but with no returns and $300 I wasn’t willing to take the risk).

I connected it with a short 6” N to ts9. When I plug it in, the RSRP changes from ~90-100 to a steady 82db or so. SNR is about 25 with or without the antenna.

Despite this, it seems to have zero effect on upload speeds, as in absolutely nothing at all! Amazing. Download speeds are a bit slower as well. I thought this figured because it’s not a MIMO antenna, but an iPhone 6s outperforms the mifi+antenna from a few feet away.

The only glimpse of hope I’ve seen was when the mifi got stuck on roaming for some reason on an HSPA+ network (band unknown) and I suddenly had 1mbps UL, despite much slower 3-5mbps DL, performance was much better all around. But I can’t get it to roam again, and am back to ~.05 mbps UL.

I’m honestly tempted to call it quits before I spend more time and money, but figured I’d at least ask if anyone has ideas.

Can a modem with band locking be set to lock on a roaming network? Maybe if I could just get that network back I’d call it good.

Thanks again for all the help!

Normally I would NEVER recommend the rigged setup I have but seems you have tried almost everything else with no joy so here goes:

What your looking at is the boosters wireless panel (the large square white unit) and a small generic omni mimo antenna (the small white square with 4G stamped on it). The leads from the antenna run into my modem/router via smc in my case.... t9 I believe in yur case. A modem that band locks would be an advantage as sometimes certain bands/frequencies have better upload speeds then others.

You could also try hooking the parabolic antenna into the booster and use this same setup. To try this setup the only thing you will need to buy is the small omni antenna to test this setup with.

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07 ... 23WH2&th=1

They are cheap and since they are from amazon can be returned

Put the omni antenna as close to the wireless panel as possible WITHOUT actually having the 2 touch and at a 90 degree angle to one another. My uploads went up quite a bit with this setup. The trick is to get the mimo antenna as close to the wireless panel as possible, again WITHOUT touching.

Let me know if you have any questions and of course if this works for you or not.

I think your parabolic antenna is designed for WiFi and not 4G Cell.
can you send the amazon link for the antenna

See YouTube link for clues
https://youtu.be/xzqkoPL9t9A

https://youtu.be/IddB63xWT7A

Adm1jtg wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:03 am
Put the omni antenna as close to the wireless panel as possible WITHOUT actually having the 2 touch and at a 90 degree angle to one another. My uploads went up quite a bit with this setup. The trick is to get the mimo antenna as close to the wireless panel as possible, again WITHOUT touching.

I’m a bit confused about this setup. Is the idea to get MIMO with the Omni but boost the signal with the other antenna and booster?

I have a weboost room but it’s 75 ohm and my parabolic is 50 ohm so not sure they’ll work together.

Dr-BroadBand wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:38 am I think your parabolic antenna is designed for WiFi and not 4G Cell.
can you send the amazon link for the antenna

1710-2170 MHz, Grid Parabolic... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07DQS39RZ?re ... b_ap_share

I selected the antenna very specifically for the B4 uploads at 1700mhz, but perhaps there is something more that I missed? Are there differences in LTE and WiFi antennas other than the wavelength?

Take a look at Poynting A-XPOL-0002-V3

https://poynting.tech/antennas-accessor ... /xpol-2-5g

It seems the parabolic at 19dbi would outperform this, MIMO aside. If nothing else, surely the The Wireless Haven parabolic would! But I was disheartened to find that there may not be a workable solution from this location, maybe beyond a massive old c band dish.

Is there some other detail here that I am missing about the Poynting?

How far are you from the Tower??
How strong is the signal??
What Bands are you hunting for?

What is your goal …. Down/Up Speeds?
For speed you are going to need 2x2 MIMO

Use Cell mapper

https://www.cellmapper.net

Here is an example below

Verizon B4, ~30mbps DL ~.07mbps UL
RSRP 85 w parabolic, 95 without
SNR 25

The tower is ~14 miles away, have tested at ~11 miles with similar results. Tower ID: eNB ID 13384 - LTE

It has bands 4*, 5, 13, 66

I'm almost exclusively on 4, but got kicked to 5 on the hotspot after hitting the data limit with very slow speeds. Not sure what the roaming band was with 1mbps but would love to find it again.

Can I lock on a roaming band with a custom modem or will Verizon see that a penalize me?

Is it possible to lock a separate band for download vs upload? Ideally I could use the roaming band for uploads and B4 for downloads, if I can’t get CA functioning.

Could you test at the tower??
Or bring your modem to another tower for a test.

Ztrain727 wrote: Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:12 pm I’m a bit confused about this setup. Is the idea to get MIMO with the Omni but boost the signal with the other antenna and booster?

The idea is the booster is your antenna source so to speak. The omni antenna is simply a way to "connect" your booster and your router. You could try the same thing by just using your routers internal antennas pointed at the boosters wireless panel but with the omni you can get much closer and get a much stronger signal.

Why a mimo omni, simply so both antenna ports on the router get equal signal. There really is no other benefit as a booster cant support mimo

Of course your results may vary but since you have not had much luck so far with other options and you already have almost everything needed to test with, why not give it a try

Adm1jtg wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 6:55 am The idea is the booster is your antenna source so to speak. The omni antenna is simply a way to "connect" your booster and your router.

Interesting! I tried a variation of this last night without the little Omni antenna but with the booster “indoor” antenna near the feed horn of the parabolic dish. It seemed to improve speeds for a time but then I had the usual variation. The thing is I have pretty good signal strength so I really need to boost the uploads somehow as downloads are already quite fast.

Dr-BroadBand wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 3:09 pm Could you test at the tower??
Or bring your modem to another tower for a test.

I tested from a point 3600ft higher than my home and directly across from the tower, maybe 8 miles away. Same downloads and .4mbps upload. That’s a tenfold improvement but still very slow. It makes me wonder, is it possible for the tower to have very low upload bandwidth?

What modem are you currently using again?
Have noticed in the past my upload was extremely lower on a Netgear M1 and MiFi 8800l compared to a LTE router type set up. Like WE826 or WG3526 with a modem like MC7455 or EM12 or EP06 or EC25-AF.
Now not saying these are the ones that work. These are just the ones that I have used that can speak too.
For me one of these setups hooked to antenna with now booster increased upload speed.

I have the wg3526 with an ep06 inside and as outlined above I am using the booster as my source. The other thing I changed was I turned off the wifi on the wg3526 and used a dedicated router for my wifi, connected via ethernet. This also increased both my download and upload speeds.

there is a really good video on youtube called mimo vs booster give it a watch it may answer some questions as well

Awesome! Thanks for the feedback guys!

I am indeed using an 8800L and I’ve been feeling the obvious next step would be an LTE modem, so thank you very much for pointing get out. Noted to get an independent router as well.

Ideally I would find a modem that does CA on uploads.

For others looking for this info, Mich at The Wireless Haven recommended the EM7411

Supposedly it has working CA on uploads.

I’m still not clear if I can set band locking on a roaming band though so I’m delaying. Verizon is on B4 and B5 for sure here, and both are very slow for uploads, but the roaming network is pushing 1mbps, 10x as fast, so that would make a world of difference with CA